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Author Topic: Ever Notice Female Villains Fall For Leo???  (Read 37149 times)
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WolfofMibu
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2006, 02:50:25 PM »

Quote from: "Leonardo"
I think I may have to quit coming into this thread...it's getting scarier than the stuff about Raph hacking apart Living Dead Dolls....LOL

As for the new Toon, even after reading the various views presented, I don't see that Leo would ever have a romantic relationship with Karai. It wouldn't be true to character.
So from a Leo character standpoint, think about this....
Would you want a relationship with someone who waffles about basically being good or bad? Who is always playing games? Not honest? Not trustworthy? Inconsistent in words and actions?
Would you put yourself into a romantic relationship after being stabbed through the shoulder with your own sword by that person?
Would you desire a relationship with someone who's unstable with a lot of issues to work through, and after a hard time picking which side of the fence to be on, when she does declare her side for Shredder, seeks to destroy your entire family, over and over again? Wants your head on a platter?
Yeah, nothing says "love me" like that.

Even before Karai chose Shredder's side, a romantic relationship was unrealistic for Leo.
Leo's a natural leader type (not the power leader type), would recognize potential in others and desire to bring that talent out.  So I agree with the concept of Leo admired the potential he saw in Karai, to try to encourage her to rise above her past and maybe become an ally, to free herself of a dark and evil path. But that admiration wasn't based in romantic love.

As for romance...go dig up those Archie comics with Raph and Ninjara...
 LOL  LOL  LOL


*gives you an awesome award*

I was getting so completely tired of getting screamed at on other boards because I simply could not see these two as a couple and how I keep trying to present it as very out of character for Leonardo to even consider this.

I really have nothing of worth or merit to add, it was just so refreshing to see an intellient conversation going on about his topic.

This is further proof of why I love this board, all of you are amazing!
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Leonardo
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2006, 10:24:26 PM »

Thank you. I did my best to type that out before running off to work this morning, hoping it would make sense.
It comes down to Karai was in no position to be a good partner in any kind of relationship even before she chose "the dark side." Sure, no one's perfect, and everyone has issues/baggage, but you if you can't have honesty and trust between two people/mutants, you have no true friendship, let alone romantic love. And Karai's issues were certainly scary ones that involved the risk of limb, or even life.
Leo is not James Bond. So the concept of that kind of relationship doesn't make sense, either.
 LOL

As for another Turtle and Romance, there's Mikey in the current Mirage comics....
I still think he's probably being completely used and abused by that gal, that he won't turn out to be the father at all. That her highness dallied with some guard or something and used Mikey to take the fall.
I could be wrong, of course. It's just a theory without a lot of proof at this point, and seeing as there's a hiatus on the comics, it'll be a while before we find out.
 Razz
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LenniluvsBrian
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2006, 12:18:47 AM »

I've read only two comics. I used to read 'em in the stores, but that was SO long ago, I don't remember any of them now. So I've no idea who half the people y'all mention are.


And I still say, some day down the line, Leo deserves to get thje girl. He's such a good guy - he deserves someone who treats him just as good.


Karai -  she attacks him again & I'M going after her with Raphael's sai!!!!!!!


~Lenni~
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AristaNiara
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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2006, 12:42:59 AM »

To be honest, I saw the relationship between Leo and Karai as if Leo had a crush on Karai.  Probably in the back of his mind somewhere, they both may have had a mutual crush on each other but both knew that neither of them could ever act upon it.

As for women falling for Leo, Maybe it was me but Renet seemed to always hang on Leo or at least hug him first.  Then again, I did kinda view her as a total flirt so that's not saying a whole lot.

For Leo liking women, he seems to be very attracted to women who can hold their own against him (I'm not saying he's a masochist or anything).  I think that this may be because he knows that any girl who dates him would forever be in danger, rather than have to stay at her side 24/7, he'd rather have a girl who can hold her own in case of her being targeted.

Okay, that's my Leo theory, as strange as it may sound...
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Mindy
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2006, 01:52:58 PM »

What kind of girl would NOT want a nice, strong, honest man for herself? When you take away the 'bad boy', the 'geek', and/or 'charmer', you still have that basic foundation - a male who cares immensely for those close to, and around, him. Most evil females/female villain characters are given that 'emotional' weakness - "I can't kill him; he didn't do anything wrong." or "What kind of person would I become by doing this?"

Up against a female villain, it's Raphael who wants to beat her to a bloody pulp for hurting his family, Mikey wants to avoid the crazy woman, and Donatello is more or less between the two - ready to fight and ready to defend. Leonardo is portrayed as the leader - he steps forward and takes control of the situation. Any kind of male hero doesn't want to hurt a female unless he absolutely has to; even when 'forced' to, they still don't want to hurt her and try to find another way out of the situation without both parties meeting an untimely end. This can also be true for male villains, as well, but males have a soft spot for the ladies Wink

I won't elaborate on the Karai/Leo thing, but I will say that all of you have some very good points. Happy/Smile
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LenniluvsBrian
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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2006, 01:59:21 AM »

Y'all got some pretty good & interesting points as well. Hehe. I go for the leader & the hot-head. Lol.


~Lenni~
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GreenWillow
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2006, 04:09:48 PM »

Oh gods help me-- I've tried to stay out of this thread but it's stuck in my brain and I have to respond now. There is a very good reason why Leo seems to end up attracted to the "bad girls". While the underlying attraction between Leo and Karai is mostly left to our imaginations and the writers' barely discernable hints, (cuz I can almost guarantee we'll never see it happen overtly), in the original 'toon he fell goony-eyed, goofily, madly in love with Very Bad Girl Lotus Blossom--an admittedly embarrassing moment for Leo fans- but appropriate for the unsubtle world of the old cartoon. She was thief-- she worked for Shredder for a price (am I remembering this right?) Anyway, she was Honor's polar opposite-- and Leonardo went head-over heels for her.

     Come on, we've all heard "opposites attract", right? There's a reason for that. Our "opposite" is very often the embodiment of unexpressed aspects of ourselves. We all have a shadow self, and nowhere does the shadow come out to play so exuberantly as in our relationships-- and who we are attracted to.

Quote from: "Leonardo"

As for the new Toon, even after reading the various views presented, I don't see that Leo would ever have a romantic relationship with Karai. It wouldn't be true to character.
So from a Leo character standpoint, think about this....
Would you want a relationship with someone who waffles about basically being good or bad? Who is always playing games? Not honest? Not trustworthy? Inconsistent in words and actions?


         The problem with your argument is that if Leonardo is purely "good", and only attracted to "good", he becomes a one-dimensional character-- a flat caricature of "goodness". Which he *isnt*-- a huge part of his appeal (to this Leo fan anyway) is that he struggles with remaining true to what he believes. In both the Mirage and 4Kids series he had spent a long dark-night- of- the- soul after getting trounced by Shredder, having to overcome self-doubt and fear. In the 4Kids series he he went through it again after his percieved failure at having opted to blow up the entire family along with Shredder's space craft. He was dark and moody and bad tempered and rude even to Splinter for a long time-- appearing to have become more Raphael than Raphael. In the original 'toon he went through an episode of self-doubt thought he was no longer fit to lead and left the family. In the Mirage City at War he questions the concept of "honor", even questions how much he is willing to give his life to Splinter (Something like: "I would gladly give my life for him but I'm not sure I'm willing to give him my life").

The thing is, even someone wholly committed to honor, committed to doing the right thing, to serving the needs of the many over his personal needs, every "good guy" has a shadow side.

Quote from: "Leonardo"

Would you put yourself into a romantic relationship after being stabbed through the shoulder with your own sword by that person?


           No one puts themselves in a romantic relationship. We don't choose who we are attracted to, and who we love. It just *happens*. We can choose to follow through or not, but as far as who gets our hearts pounding, we have no control over that. Now it would be very much like Leo to try and convince himself that he has control over that. I wrote a whole novel-length fan fic about his struggle to deny his feelings for someone, but the reality is we don't get to choose that. "Master of the Body and of the Mind" doesn't say anything about the Heart!--lol!

Quote from: "Leonardo"

Even before Karai chose Shredder's side, a romantic relationship was unrealistic for Leo.
Leo's a natural leader type (not the power leader type), would recognize potential in others and desire to bring that talent out.  So I agree with the concept of Leo admired the potential he saw in Karai, to try to encourage her to rise above her past and maybe become an ally, to free herself of a dark and evil path. But that admiration wasn't based in romantic love.


Likely not at the start. More likely the admiration was for her skills as a Ninja and a warrior. But Leo is also a rescuer. Over time he wants to save her from the "dark side"-- why else would be keep letting her go -- pleading with her to do the honorable thing? Why is he so devastated when she doesn't do the right thing? Over and over? I think he's hooked. How come? Hm?
 Love

  And as for Karai, her Darkness is drawn relentlessly to Leo's Light. Over and above "opposites attracting", the small seed of Good in her would be instinctively drawn to him for some kind of "salvation."

  Metaphysically or psychologically it can be understood as the faster we run towards the light, the faster the dark will pursue us, sucked along in our wake. It's simple cause and effect, the Universe and/ or our psyches maintaining balance.

    But the idea of the "good boy" being attracted magnetically to the "bad girl"-- omg-- it's too juicy to pass up. I think the writers know this, but of course they can never write *that* story for a kids' cartoon. The writer in *me* sees it and is going nuts -- thank heaven for fan fiction!

OK. I feel better now. Needed to get that out.  
 LOL


           ~GW
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Aignatius
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2006, 11:53:21 AM »

Well said, GW. That is something I've struggled to express in the past, and couldn't do so properly. Very thought provoking.
I also believe one doesn't choose who they fall in love with, but the part about Leo that is admirable is his self control. He has his principles, and while another part of him may be pulling in one direction, one's upbringing, morals, and such like pull him in another. Whether one or the other wins out is where the choice lies.

Tolkien's character Faramir is another example. In the book, he doesn't seem to struggle with the issue of the ring at all. He is so good and pure, that he doesn't give it a second glance.
In the movie, Faramir struggles with the temptation, even if the temptation is glossed over with good intentions. He wants to show his quality, please his father, and so forth. In the end, he realizes the ring is evil, and he turns away from it. That makes him a better hero than the one in the book, because without temptations and overcoming them, how does one build strength and character?
I personally admire someone more who is faced with tremendous temptation, and in the end, overcomes it, than someone who makes it look effortless.

I too, as a writer, am interested in how characters in good stories are handled, and the character development with the TMNT is phenomenal. I wold have beeninterested in how this interaction between Leo and Karai panned out, but if she is as honor-bound as he is, yet struggles between two tough choices, it could go on indefinitely as it is. Not every good story has a neat ending. Wink

Can't say my fic was terribly good, it meandered and dithered, but I had been wanting to take a hero figure and put him in a situation where, say, what would happen if he failed to make the right choice, and how would he deal with it? To me, "perfection" and "heroism" does not come from never making mistakes, or not having a weakness. It comes from how you handle the mistakes you've made, and whether or not you've learned from them. And making the best of the outcome. Also, taking responsibility for the mistake.

But my word, the fic ideas that this Karai vs. Leo thing must have hatched... rather scary to think about the possibliities...   Shocked  Wink
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AristaNiara
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2006, 12:14:03 PM »

GW, I'm also with you.  I've been in several very abusive relationships and I'll say that no one wants to be put in one, nor does want to put himself in a situation which can be bad.  I  almost feel as if Leo goes for the women who aren't necessarilly bad but more women who can actually hold their own.  Let's face it, of all of the women on the show, Karai has been the one who has actually impressed him in her ability to fight without a stong guy there to back her up 24/7 or who has spoken down to him, making him look stupid.

April is intelligent but she's of Don's IQ times, Don seems to like her and she's now with Casey.  So she's out.  Angel is a little young for them, so she's out.  Renet is...Renet and just through the way Leo seems to get annoyed with her inwardly, I can't see that working out.  Karai is the only other main woman character who has actually shown that women can be strong without anyone having to worry that she'll get hurt.

In the original cartoon, Lotus was the only woman who actually knew how to fight.  April just stood there and acted like the Damsil in Distress 24/7.  

Maybe I'm just missing something but I honestly don't think it's a case of "good boy goes for the bad girls."  I almost see it ninja guy wants a strong independant woman who can hold her own in a battle since if he ever had a girlfriend, she'd most likely be targeted.  Again, maybe I'm completely off track.
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Aignatius
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2006, 05:32:08 PM »

No, I don't think you're off track.  Cool

Ohh, I dunno, it's probably a simple case of excessive amounts of pheromones.  LOL
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AristaNiara
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2006, 06:21:11 PM »

Quote from: "Aignatius"
No, I don't think you're off track.  Cool

Ohh, I dunno, it's probably a simple case of excessive amounts of pheromones.  LOL


Amen to that!  LOL  That's probably what it is...besides, they're hormones are probably raging right now so..."Hey!  A woman's paying attention to me" may not be too far off. Wink
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Aignatius
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2006, 08:30:37 PM »

I'm sure plenty of women are paying attention to him. He just hasn't really noticed, yet.  LOL

 Wink
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AristaNiara
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2006, 10:52:43 PM »

Or has he closed himself off?  I mean, there are plenty of women paying attentin but he's not noticing...either that or he doesn't know what to look for.
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Leonardo
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2006, 11:13:05 PM »

These are certainly interesting theories, too.
It's definitely the romance/shojo/chic flic approach, and it's one way of presenting stories about these two characters.
But I don't think the other side of it, that Leo would not fall in love in with Karai (and therefore not much of a romance tale) makes either of them one-dimensional characters at all.
Either way, these themes are not new, have been done before.  But I think a number of writers could tackle this from both sides and come up great stories.
I think as fan fic writers, everyone is bringing their own agendas and viewpoints to the stories. You can't help but do so, because you have to write what you know or care about or are working through for yourself at some level. Or there's no passion in your writing, in terms of drive to craft something worthwhile. And there are those, as GW pointed out, that love to torment and twist these characters, dig for the dark sides, the fallen, go for the angst, go for the romance. And those that would craft other stories about the meaning of family, the loss of possible alliances/friendship (to maybe change a small part of the world for better), redeeming personal honor, the dark path taken of revenge, and a possible final outcome between the two.
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GreenWillow
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2006, 12:16:16 AM »

Quote from: "Leonardo"

And there are those, as GW pointed out, that love to torment and twist these characters, dig for the dark sides, the fallen, go for the angst, go for the romance.


     Jeez, you make it sound like a *bad* thing! (You can't fool me-- I know who wrote Dark Journeys!)   Wink

I've always been partial to character-driven plots, rather than situational. My interest in a Leo/Karai relationship is not for the romantic angle of it. Anyone who's read my fics knows I'm not really a romantic-- I couldn't write a happy ending (the absolute  requirement of the "romance" genre) to save my soul. What hooks me about this is that it throws Leo into an inner struggle.

The situational conflict in the primary TMNT story line is the Turtles overcoming the evil that was Shredder and the Foot. Really, The Story starts with their first assasination attempt in Mirage #1 and ends with Shredder's final death in #21. But the part that hooks us (me!) is the inner struggle that the young TMNT must overcome (mostly Leonardo) to eventually go back and face the enemy in battle again. Yeah, yeah, martial arts, boom bang, slice and dice. The action is lots of fun. But for me, the stuff that pulled me in in the first place are the character -driven components. It's the intrapersonal and interpersonal stuff that drives the story.

So yeah, whether we find the conflicts in "the loss of possible alliances/friendship (to maybe change a small part of the world for better), redeeming personal honor, the dark path taken of revenge, and a possible final outcome between the two," as you say, or if it's a conflict between ones values and ones desires/needs, there has to be a conflict.  Without a conflict you don't have a story.

  ~GW
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