The 'Defeat your own beliefs with logic' topic :)

[Shredder]

Every now and then, I think way too deeply about stuff, so this is your place to discuss thoughts you may have..

For instance...One thought rings true from Next Mutation : "Your brain Drowns out your spirit, Donatello".

I've been brought up in the Christian faith.  Church on Christmas, celebrate Easter and all that.  but, I'm also a man of science and logic.  Scientists have more or less proven, I beleive, that the big bang has happened billions of years ago.  Can the Christians prove that God created earth in 7 days?  How do they know the bible wasn't started  by some Drunk and sold for profit to create a religion?

For instance, when I have too much time on my hands, I start to think this way.  If God created Earth, how did God get all of his magical powers?  Was God the first being here, or where there others and if so what happened to them?  If not, how did God himself get created?

If the Big Bang is the start of recorded history, what was here before the Big Bang?  If there was no universe as we know it, then what's the point of life in gernal?  All our squables and differences become more or less meaningless.

Usually when I think like this, my brain s tarts to hurt and I go onto more fun stuf..

Anyone else think like this, or is it just me?

[Jephael]

These are the very same questions that plague everyone. Infact, there was a really great episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where they delved into these questions and Ray's character just cam up with the best line to sum it all up - "You you're saying God made us smart enough so that we know there's an answer to life's big meaning but he didn't make us smart enough to know what it is?"

[sss979]

I've been brought up in the Christian faith too.  Church 4 times a week, skipping Christmas and Easter services 'cause they were so packed full...  But none of that is relavent if I don't know what I believe because *I* believe it, not because someone tells me to.  I found that out.  And as I also adore science and logic, I've thought through all of the questions you've posed.  So I have my take on them, and you can take it for what you will.

The big bang happened.  I don't doubt that.  God said "go boom" and it went.  Seven days is an irrelavent time specification because as stated elsewhere in the Bible, God does not measure time in the way we do.  It could have been seven days... or seven minutes... or seven million years.  We're never going to know.  How do we know the Bible is real?  That's a question that can't be answered with science.  I could go into the whole spiel about how it came to be but chances are you already know all of that.  The Bible teaches us how God talks so that when he talks, we can check it against the Bible and know if it's really Him or not.  And I'm not talking about 'thee's and 'thou's.  I'm talking about the kinds of things God says, and his personality.

As for how God came to be... define "eternity".  We as human beings can't do that.  We don't have the capacity to understand it.  How did God himself get created?  He just WAS.  Frankly, it's a lot easier for me to think there was a CREATOR that always was than that there was a creation (particles of matter that came together and eventually caused the big bang) that always was.  Who put the matter there?

Just my take.
-fig

[moronqueen]

I've always figured people are free to believe what they want to believe. I don't think anyone's right, and anyone's wrong, as far as spirituality goes, and as far as science? Love the stuff...but it's not the end all, be all.

I wasn't raised as a Christian as the vast majority of people around here were, and I'm very happy with my own path, despite the grief I tend to get for it from the preachier people out there.

But if you believe something enough, whether you were raised from birth to believe it, or you've descovered it on your own, no amount of physical/mental/logical/whatever "truth" someone else tries to shove on you, you won't stop believing in the fundamentals of said belief. It's a big reason why I tend not to talk about faith and whatnot in public 'cause the other person won't agree with what I have to say, and I don't take getting belittled well at all.

So long as you're a good person at the root, and do your best not to cause harm (physical, mental or emotional), you're ok in my book, and so long as it's not being shoved on me, the rest is just frills.

[Mily]

Well..., I have my own beliefs and maybe they're little redundant but I do believe in god though I am not a Christian. I also believe in evolution. See my point? I really don't know why I believe it like this, but I just think they're too much evidence that evolution exists to ignore it.

[Donatello]

*delurk*

Yeah... I find it to be a silly stereotype to think that sprituality/religion and science can not co-exist.  That if everything written in the Bible can't be proven with logic/science, that it's false.

I am a Christian (even though I have gotten lazy about going to church) but I also like to learn about new scientifc findings.. even if some of those findings do make me shake my head (aka, the ones where it seems that humans are trying to play God).  

I guess that is why also like genres that combine spirutality with science/machines.  Some of the Vol. 1 TMNT comics, Transformers, Full Metal Alchemist, Short Curcuit, etc. etc...  

*/delurk*

[Darth_CJJ]

A week or so ago I was at work, and this girl who works there (who'd been on leave) was back with her newborn baby. Everyone was making a really big deal. I don't understand what the deal with babies is.

I'll tell you guys flat out that I'm anti-abortion, if anyone wants to know why we can talk about that another time. But at the same time, I feel that it's selfish of people to be having kids when there are so many children in the world who don't have parents, or a roof over their head, or food in their stomachs every night when they go to sleep. I think a lot of Americans have the attitude that the government constantly promotes, which is that we are the greatest country in the world, etc. etc. etc. Being able to have children out of wedlock and then go on welfare is a luxury if I've ever seen one.

I'm a "white" male but I can honestly say that I don't care for most of the European-American values that this country seems to have been built on. This country was built on the backs of thousands of slaves who were treated worse than animals. Not only that, but I almost feel that many people in this country today would have no problem with bringing back slavery if they could do so without having to worry about the consequences.

I can't believe money actually comes out of my paycheck to support children because daddy and mommy are deadbeats who couldn't even be responsible enough to use a condom or some other form of birth control. We all do. And it sucks. I find it hard to be excited about a newborn baby when the world is already struggling to support the 6 billion of us that are already here. And this is an issue that we could talk about for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our LIVES and possibly never get anywhere.

[Jephael]

Well dude, you gotta try and look at this thing from a family perspective. You know how exciting it is for a married couple to be having their very first baby? My sister is expecting her first born on June 21st and my mom can't be anymore excited than she is now, not to mention how excited I am to become an uncle!

[Shredder]

I'll tell you guys flat out that I'm anti-abortion, if anyone wants to know why we can talk about that another time. But at the same time, I feel that it's selfish of people to be having kids when there are so many children in the world who don't have parents, or a roof over their head, or food in their stomachs every night when they go to sleep. I think a lot of Americans have the attitude that the government constantly promotes, which is that we are the greatest country in the world, etc. etc. etc. Being able to have children out of wedlock and then go on welfare is a luxury if I've ever seen one. >>>

What I find a major problem in this world....

you always see those, 'celebrity with starving third world children' commercials.  I feel sorry for the kids, but I wish something could be done to stop those parents from having the kids in the first place, when they KNOW they can't afford them.  Why should the kids suffer because the parents are too stupid not to know otherwise?  In situations like that, those kids should be taken away to proper places where they can be fed and educated, rather than left with their parents to starve and star in commercials most people ignore.

That's what really bugs me about the kid issue...

[moronqueen]

you always see those, 'celebrity with starving third world children' commercials.  I feel sorry for the kids, but I wish something could be done to stop those parents from having the kids in the first place, when they KNOW they can't afford them.  Why should the kids suffer because the parents are too stupid not to know otherwise?  In situations like that, those kids should be taken away to proper places where they can be fed and educated, rather than left with their parents to starve and star in commercials most people ignore.

That's what really bugs me about the kid issue...

In a lot of the third world countries, women have no choice in the matter. The people who have control over their reproductive rights are the men. There's a lot of patriarchy going on in the world, and the majority of people are absolutely blind to it. The whole AIDS epidemic over in Africa is made worse by the fact that otherwise healthy young women are dying of the disease and spreading it around because the only way they can feed their siblings and families is by selling themselves on the streets. There's no education, no nothing. In India, young women in affluent families are splashed with gasoline and burned horribly if they don't bear their husbands a son. Infant girls are murdered because a boy is ideal. There's a lot in parts of India outlawing the practice of telling a family what gender the fetus is because the practice of selective abortion is so prevalent. As for the poorer women, they have no choice. They're forced to have as many babies as possible, even if it kills them in the end.

I tend to see unwanted kids had for the money here in America, by poorer people because, yes, they are rewarded for it. I don't know how many girls do know all the risks of having unprotected sex, but really, if they had a brain in their heads, they'd know how to take precautions. If you don't want to take those precautions and still know the risks, don't do it. Simple as that, far as I'm concerned.

Society does put a lot of pressure on people, women especially, to get married and have a family as soon as possible. Every time I tell someone that 'no, I don't have kids', they either ask me why not or look at me with pity. To be honest, I'm glad I don't have any. Neither my husband nor I are emotionally, mentally or financially ready to give a child the life it deserves. The responsibility of parenthood starts long before that baby is nestled in that woman's womb. If you can't love and care for a child, don't have one.

Shame it doesn't work like that in real life.

[Absaraka]

I'm going to hang back a bit on this one, believe it or not, and yes, I do know what forum this is.  I also know that I'm treading on thin ice with some members here, so I'm going to bite my tongue a bit.

On the origins of everything: Scientists have gotten very, very close to reconstructing the moment of the big bang.  But everything breaks down at Time Zero--what exactly was it that blew up?  And where did THAT stuff come from?  It's the mother of all explananda, and there may never be a provable explanans for it.  (Can you tell I REALLY liked that logic course I took in college?)

As to God and the big bang, I don't see any conflict between Genesis and the big bang.  For a universe-creating explosion, the first thing that's going to be seen is light.  So I think it is possible for God to have said, "Let there be light", and then, BANG, there was light.  LOTS of it.  Just my $0.02.

On abortion:  I don't like it for a host of reasons, but I'm not going to elaborate unless someone asks me to.

On expanding families:  My nephew turns 8 months old this Saturday, so I'm going to recuse myself from that part.  My sister-in-law is going to be bringing him by our place tomorrow afternoon--camera's already charging, thank you very much.

Raka